ProofThatGodExists.org is an interesting site that presents a transcendental argument for the existence of God. If you check the site out, take time to read through each page -- don't skip ahead -- otherwise you'll be missing the whole argument.Enjoy.
9 comments :
First off, it is a proof of deism, and it is flawed.
The flaw is it declares that these could not have come about except by design. This is false. These rules are all descriptions of reality.
How does order come from choas? Because the universe isn't wholy random- it is mostly deterministic. There are patterns and the further you move from the randomness at the bottom, the stronger they become, until you reach our level. At the bottom matter and energy may flicker and smeer, but here, there is order. The randomness rarely rears its ugly head. The patterns it forms create the laws we observe.
Could you explain why you think it points to deism (i.e., that God exists but is not sustaining it providentially)?
You say "it declares that these could not have come about except by design..."
What are you referring to? And when does the site mention design?
You left a few other comments on previous posts in quick succession - and then I get this comment right after that. The quick response and the fuzzy comment (which doesn't seem to address the actual site content) lead me to suspect that you didn't take the time to read through the site content thoroughly.
Thanks for the comments, Samuel, and I hope you continue to visit here.
The site gives an argument that all these things (absolute morality, mathematical laws, science, logic) could not have come out about be chance- that they had to be designed.
Such an argument is deistic- it is a God that sets up the universe.
It tries to say that only Christianity can support such a view, even though other religions can easily use the same arguments. His appoach is to use bible verses to show it is compatible with Christianity- specifically God making everything.
Hey- I follow the google trail, coming and going where it leads.
Thanks for posting the link here Brian, I've gotten several hits from it already.
Blessings,
Sye
Samuel,
Thanks for posting again.
I don't know of any arguments that are know-down-drag-out arguments that prove everything about the God of Christianity in one go.
That being said, the site does say "proof that God exists" -- so in that case, whether it is deism or theism, it is a 'proof' that God exists.
You mentioned that it shows only "a God who sets up the universe." From there it does not follow that just because it MAY be a deistic God that it cannot be the God of Christianity. In that case I would begin to investigate the truth claims of Christianity to see if it is systematically consistent.
Either way, I believe that it is quite rational to expect a cause for the universe, its laws, morality, etc. To just accept these things as 'brute facts' that popped into existence from nothing, uncaused, and yet appear designed -- to me that seems very untenable.
Samuel said: "Such an argument is deistic- it is a God that sets up the universe."
The site is based on the characteristics of the God of Christianity as He has revealed to us. You may posit that the site supports deism, but you would have to make your case, instead of just making an assertion.
Besides Samuel, you are attempting to use logic to refute my arguments, perhaps you could tell us how YOU account for the universal, abstract, invariant laws of logic according to YOUR worldview. (I don't see the point in arguing something (deism) that neither of us believe).
Cheers,
Sye
Well, Islam and Judaism make similar basis for their God, so it can't distinguish between the differant Abramic religions- or the differant sects for that matter.
As for explaining were logic, morality, science and math come from, I'll list them out.
Logic is based on a set of assumptions. It isn't universal (see quantum mechanics where things both can be and can't be similtaneously). However, for our world it is. It is an emergent property and was discovered.
Science is universal because there is only one universe and science is based off of it. The universe also shows no signs of reacting to our minds so it is independant of what individuals think too.
Math... I don't know- I need to read up on it.
Morality is universal because it is about what is the right way of dealing with other people. There is only one best answer. Note that your example (child molestation) isn't such a great one- the greeks and other cultures did practice such things and find them okay. Heck, the Victorians had an age of consent of 12!
http://everything2.com/title/Age%2520of%2520Consent
So while having sex with children is wrong, it has not been a universal considered so.
Sanuel said: ”Well, Islam and Judaism make similar basis for their God, so it can't distinguish between the differant Abramic religions- or the differant sects for that matter.”
The problem is, that those religions affirm the truth of the Torah, but refute themselves by contradicting that truth in the Qur’an, and Talmud respectively.
As for explaining were logic, morality, science and math come from, I'll list them out.
Logic is based on a set of assumptions. It isn't universal (see quantum mechanics where things both can be and can't be similtaneously).
Your understanding of Quantum mechanics is woeful. Quantum mechanics in no way proves that one thing can both be and not be at the same time. At best, the uncertainty principle indicates that measuring the speed of a quantum particle affects its location, and measuring its location affects its speed, but not that it can both be, and not be at the same time. Tell me though, does the law of non-contradiction necessarily apply to your argument? If so why, if not why not?
However, for our world it is. It is an emergent property and was discovered.
Where was logic discovered?!? Could the sun have been both the sun, and not the sun at the same time and in the same way before the law of non-contradiciton emerged?
”Science is universal because there is only one universe and science is based off of it.”
Hmmm, how do you know that there is only one universe, and how do you know that science applies universally to that one universe?
The universe also shows no signs of reacting to our minds so it is independant of what individuals think too.
I would agree, however, I’d like to know how you know this? You have only a very limted frame of reference, how can you extrapolate this into a universal characteristic?
”Morality is universal because it is about what is the right way of dealing with other people. There is only one best answer.”
How do you know that ‘there is only one best answer,’ and how do we arrive at it according to YOUR worldview?
”Note that your example (child molestation) isn't such a great one- the greeks and other cultures did practice such things and find them okay. Heck, the Victorians had an age of consent of 12!”
Problem is, behaviour has exactly nothing to do with whether or not absolute moral laws DO exist.
”So while having sex with children is wrong
Um, absolutely wrong?
it has not been a universal considered so.”
As I said, behaviour has zilch to do with the existence of absolute moral laws.
Cheers,
Sye
Brian, I would suggest you check here on why Sye has a flawed argument.
PS: One-time awareness link for blogspot users.
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